Parents’ Rights in Education Interview with Detransitioner Camille Kiefel

In this podcast episode from the "Parents Rights in Education" series, Suzanne Gallagher converses with Camille Kiefel, founder of the nonprofit organization D Trans Help. Kiefel shares her personal journey through gender identity struggles, including undergoing a non-binary mastectomy funded by Medicaid, which ultimately led to worsening mental health and physical health issues. She speaks about her extensive experience with mental health treatments, including dialectical behavior therapy and transcranial magnetic stimulation, none of which provided relief until she focused on her physical health. This led her to question the fast-track process for gender transition surgeries and the lack of support for those wishing to detransition.

Kiefel's organization, D Trans Help, aims to provide support for detransitioners, highlighting the medical and bureaucratic challenges they face, such as the absence of an ICD-10 code for detransition, which complicates insurance billing for necessary medical care. The discussion touches on broader issues around gender transition policies, the quick diagnosis and recommendation for major surgeries without exploring underlying health issues or alternative treatments, and the financial and ideological motives that may influence the healthcare system's approach to gender dysphoria. Kiefel's testimony against a conversion therapy bill in Oregon underscores the complex landscape of legal and medical standards affecting individuals with gender dysphoria and those considering detransitioning.

Transcript

Hanna  0:01  
Welcome back to the parents rights and education podcast. We are a grassroots movement of millions of parents and allies standing together, speaking as one to protect children and ensure parents crucial role in their child's education is protected. We come alongside millions of parents and allies and equip them to stand up for their rights by free trainings, membership and community support. You can join this movement for free by visiting parents rights and education.com. And hey, if you love the work that we're doing, please leave us a five star review. Your review helps us get out our message and allows us to keep advocating for parents rights. Thanks so much for being here. Let's get into today's topic. Do you love the work we're doing here at parents rights in education and want to know how you can become more involved. Become a member for free today, by becoming a member, you can connect with your local leadership, getting access to our free training, and advice, and stay up to date with the latest issues. Join today for free by visiting parents rights in education.com/join. That parents rights in education.com/join.

Suzanne Gallagher  1:04  
Hey, Camille, Welcome to Parents Rights in Education. Thank you so much for being our guest today.

Camille Kiefel  1:10  
Thank you for having me.

Suzanne Gallagher  1:11  
Absolutely. Tell us a little bit about yourself. What was your journey to the place where you are now being in charge of an nonprofit organization called D trans help?

Camille Kiefel  1:28  
Yeah, so for me, I was struggling with trauma around gender growing up, and particularly in grade school. And then I was introduced to the idea of being non binary when I was in college. And so, for me, it was very appealing because it was almost this way to opt out a gender. And I struggled with mental health issues for years, and I wasn't getting a relief. And after about 20 years of traditional talk therapy, even DBT, which is like the gold standard of therapy, for those of you who aren't familiar, it's dialectical behavior therapy. And two rounds of transcranial magnetic stimulation therapy, which is a treatment reserved for treatment resistant depression. I was really struggling. And so I reached out to my doctor, I had been struggling, I thought I was non binary for years. And I was I had discomfort with my breasts. And I thought that transitioning would solve my mental health issues. And I tried everything else at this point. And so August 27 2020, they performed a non binary mastectomy on me, and Medicaid considered it a medical necessity. And so after the surgery, I developed all these health issues, and my mental health declined further, I was struggling with suicidal ideation. And my doctors took me seriously at first, but when they thought I had psychosomatic fever, they stopped taking me seriously. So at that point, I was I was thinking I just either need in my life or figure out how to get better. And so I took my physical health into my own hands, because I was struggling with physical health issues. I was like, Well, I have to do something for my physical health. And I was shocked when all of a sudden my mental health got better. So that's what I needed all along was to address my physical health, and not to just, you know, continue on with therapy and these medications I was not responding well to wow.

Suzanne Gallagher  3:40  
So what kind of medications were you taking? Were they were they like anti anxiety? Or, or, or were they hormones?

Camille Kiefel  3:52  
I never took hormones or hormone replacement therapy. I didn't respond well to medications, but they tried multiple medications, they tried antidepressants, they tried ADHD medications. And they did conventional medicine just didn't know what to do with me because I was not responding well to medications and that's all they want to do is just medications or more therapy. So Wow.

Suzanne Gallagher  4:18  
Wow. Um, so tell me about now recently what what has brought you to this idea that you want to help others who want to D transition. So

Camille Kiefel  4:32  
part of the reason why I started D trans help was that there are very few services out there to help D transitioners. Get the medical help they need. I found it difficult. And even though my doctors didn't know as a D transition er and I didn't know as a D transition at the time. I know how doctors can treat you very differently once you don't fit within their scope of care. And we've been hearing many D transitioners have issues getting the medical care they need. And part of this is because there's no ICD 10 code for D transition. And for those of you who aren't familiar, an ICD 10 code is a medical code that insurance companies use, and providers use to be able to build medical care for their patients. So there is nothing for D transition, and this can make getting medical care very difficult.

Suzanne Gallagher  5:27  
Oh, my goodness. So they'll only transition you that Yeah. Oh, my gosh, that's big. So

Camille Kiefel  5:34  
it is concerning. I know, for me, personally, I am looking into reconstruction surgery. So they actually want to bill me under gender affirming care. The problem with that is that my surgery, if I get reconstruction surgery will show up just as another gender affirming procedure. So instead of actually showing up as a D transition procedure, which it is, I'm just going to be reinforcing the idea of gender affirming care.

Suzanne Gallagher  6:01  
Through the records, so you came to the conclusion that that your your emotional and your struggles? Had nothing to do with changing your sex. Physically. Although you were you went down that path? What was it that took you down that path? I mean, I think we spoke earlier. And, and my recollection is that you kind of were fast tracked is am I not remembering that correctly? into into actually having, I mean, having your breasts removed? This gigantic? It's major surgery?

Camille Kiefel  6:46  
Yeah, it's a major surgery. And it when I reached out to my doctor, I was approved of the surgery within months. So I think it was about June, perhaps June, when I reached out to my doctor, I got my first try. Remember, I got my first letter, it was in June, it was C either June. And then July was when I got my second letter. And then I got the surgery in August. So within months, wow, the surgery was approved. And it was performed on me. And it was considered a medical necessity. Incredible.

Suzanne Gallagher  7:23  
And so then you went down the other path of discovering that you just described to us that you you began to take more personal responsibility for your own care. What do you think about that? That fast tracking? What would you do if you if you were involved in public policy making regarding that that timespan? What would you recommend? I

Camille Kiefel  7:51  
mean, one of the big things I would recommend is actually getting them to look into other underlying health issues before even considering the surgery, we actually had a young man reach out to the trans help. And he was saying he was uncomfortable sex. And he wanted to opt out of gender. And you struggle with depression. And he struggled with suicidal ideation. And one of the first things that he said or that they recommended to him was to get surgery to get gender affirming care. And I was just looking at this and I'm like, There's nothing about this that sounds trans at all. Like, it's not that Oh, I knew I was always a girl like I've known since I was five. It was I want to opt out of sex and I want to opt out gender like nothing about this sounds trans at all.

Suzanne Gallagher  8:44  
Um, what do you think the motivation is to, to make these diagnoses so quickly and and encourage people to to undergo very major surgeries, life changing, permanent? I mean, literally, it's some you'll never get your own breasts back. Right?

Camille Kiefel  9:09  
Yeah, yeah, I'm never getting my breasts back. It's I, I probably don't have the capability of breastfeeding. I don't to be honest, I don't even know it's all removed. It's I think that there's a couple things going on. Okay. One of them is that it's that they're comparing this to being gay. And they're thinking that this is similar to the gay rights movement. The problem is, is that being gay doesn't require medicalization being trans almost always does. And I think that there's that sort of, well meaning aspect to it, and there's a sort of optimism around well, this person I'm dealing with must be must be trans. They think they are and then we're finding that once They d transition, they get treated very differently. I think that there's an embarrassment, there's a you know, because if you're the provider that would be, I imagine that there's a lot of confusion and shame around that to realize that your patient that you approved of doing the surgery and this procedure found out that this was not the right procedure with them. And that's the tricky thing is that we don't know who is and who is not a good candidate for the surgeries. Part of it is that they, there's this idea that you can be trans and you can have trauma, you have this trauma history. Well, what we're seeing with the D transitioners, is that trauma has played a huge role in their desire to transition. There's some some D transitioners, who had histories of sexual violence, there are some D transitioners, who didn't want to be gay. And so these were appealing reasons for them wanting to transition to not have that body that's that's with that trauma. And or that, that to them is potentially causing that trauma. So there's a very appealing aspect that's not being investigated. And then there's, I mean, for some, I do think there is a financial incentive. But I do think that unfortunately, there is this cult like aspect, that's not allowing doctors and mental health professionals to actually look at this critically and investigate further into why this phenomenon is happening. So D trans help reach out to W path, we expressed our concerns over the patterns we are seeing with D transitioners. And we did not get a response. We also reached out to the WHO World Health Organization. And we express the fact that we were concerned that there is no ICD 10 codes for D transition and the need for that. And also the fact that on their board, they do not have a de transitioner. It's all trans pro Trans activist. And we again did not hear a response. So we have been trying to work with these organizations to express our concerns and have not been able to start dialogue with either of them. Interesting.

Suzanne Gallagher  12:23  
So I know that you have testified before the legislature in the state of Oregon, what was that about?

Camille Kiefel  12:32  
So I testified against the conversion therapy bill in Oregon. And thankfully, that one was dropped, they did not pass that bill. And the concern was that therapists would not feel safe being able to explore gender with their patients. And we have actually seen the impacts of the sort of conversion therapy laws in Canada, we were talking with a naturopath, and he was saying that he did not feel comfortable treating D transitioners. Because he was worried about that there's like a 250 $100,000 fine, and up to a five year prison sentence. If he broke the conversion therapy law in Canada, well, so for many of these individuals, the risk is too high for them to treat D transitioners. And consider giving us care. And while there may be there are workarounds, many the time for many of these laws at the same time for some doctors, and for some mental health professionals, this risk may be too high and they just don't want to deal with it. So that's really we just need to consider that when we are seeing these bills for against conversion therapy, that these are real consequences that both mental health professionals and health professionals are going to have to look into.

Suzanne Gallagher  14:00  
Right, right in in the state of Oregon. Currently, there is a law that does not allow counselors and professional psychiatrists to affirm. Tell me if I'm wrong about this, but to confirm the biological sex of a client or patient who thinks that they have been born in the wrong body or that they should change their sex. Is that correct? I'm not

Camille Kiefel  14:34  
sure actually because I think that was the bill we were up against.

Suzanne Gallagher  14:39  
So well. I believe it is the law in the state of Oregon. I know it is in California for sure that it is illegal for a counselor or psychiatrists to affirm the biological sex of a client or patient who believes that that they need to change their sex or that they're in the wrong body or something like that, that they have to go along with what they think or what they say they think they should be, instead of the actual, biological sex they are. And it's a scary place for a professional to be in. Because you have just demonstrated that, that that's not an easy thing to do, that's not an easy thing to do is to say, well, you should just change your sex. Because especially if you are telling that patient or client, that they that they should undergo surgical procedures that are irreversible. Now, you may say, Well, I can have new breasts, but they're not. They're not the same as the original ones. So you really can't go back just this exact same way you were. I know this because I'm a breast cancer survivor. They're not the same. So I'm anyone to undergo that on. Voluntarily. I'm is is really, it's dramatic. So I really appreciate your coming on with us today. Camille, you're brave woman. And thank you so much for standing up for what's right. And we've got to get this right. It's it's over the top. How can people find

Camille Kiefel  16:28  
you people can find me through D trans help.org. We are a nonprofit organization by D transitioners. For D transitioners.

Suzanne Gallagher  16:37  
Terrific. Thanks again.

Camille Kiefel  16:40  
Thank you for having me.

Hanna  16:41  
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Keep up with everything we're doing. Check out our website, parents rights in education.com and sign up for our newsletter. You can also join our movement for free by visiting our website parents rights and education.com to do your part in protecting parents, right. You can become a club 12 by 12 member by donating $12 a month. It takes all of us to make the change that we want to see. Thanks so much for listening. Talk soon.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai